I belonged to a church for 11 years, was deeply involved in the music ministry and had many relationships within the congregation - all ages and walks of life, as you’ve said - but they seemed “surfacey”. I left the church because the pastor wasn’t being honest with me, he was saying what I wanted to hear but he wasn’t honest. He promised me things he would never deliver. When I left the church, NO ONE reached out to me. Not a single person, although they called me friend, checked on me or asked why I left. It was as if I were never there.
I don’t actually ‘like’ this, I’m just acknowledging that this is really hard, and really common, I’m afraid.
and this is what I mean when I say that if we want to save our congregations we need to look deeply and honestly at how we are living the Gospel - loving God and our neighbor - within the community.
I agree. And I acknowledge that it was partly on me that I didn’t work harder to establish deep relationships. And I do miss the community of church, it’s the reason I would go back.
When I read this this morning I wept. Tears of joy for her victory but, mostly I’m sorry to say, tears for the loss of a dear friend. You know, when we would have lunch, she would always give me a homework assignment so I could prepare for “the topic of the day”. What a lady.
We love our church. It’s a queer-positive, open-minded Baptist church. We have a lot of great intergenerational relationships. I’d really like us to go deeper though in our intimacy. I’m the adult spiritual formation person. People like to read books and talk about them on an intellectual level. I would like us to do activities that allow for vulnerable sharing. I’m not sure how to change the culture exactly. I have a lot more intimacy with other communities I’m a part of.
I would pay attention to the other intimate community relationships you have. What's there that's missing in your church?
Also, I don't think you can change the culture of the church. But you can let it change you.
By which I mean - be open to what you're resisting. The invitations to draw closer that you're not responding to.
I mean it when I say my friend scared me at first! My inclination was to be pleasant on the surface, but also guarded with someone I worried might be trying to hurt me.
She wasn't. But I didn't know that until I let her come close enough to know that for sure.
I definitely agree that trying to figure out if I'm resisting something or being snobbish in some kind of way is a part of the journey. Basically, what I've experienced in subcultures like ecstatic dance, tantra, and kink is a whole different universe than what middle class white liberal churchgoers are up for. I find myself more restless with mainstream social norms the more queer and embodied I get in my spirituality.
So interesting to me that our free range/part-time priest gets the essential understanding of the church that many of our full-time clergy don’t as they continue to do what we have always done and somehow expect different results. This is not the season for the status quo and it certainly isn’t the future of faith. Thanks
So dear Fr C, You know me from both Community as church, church and community and Ministry Matters. I now am working on Communion and community. I have already commented and you've been gracious to mention both books. Many thanks. The current full Hokusai you are doing with 36 view not of Mt Fuji but church as community is exactly where our attention ought to be. As you note with decreasing numbers of people and dollars, with conflict and division which is what our country is in now, all the more it seems we are challenged in trying to be the body of Christ, the bread for the life of the world, the people of God.
After 42 years in ordained ministry in several church bodies and now the Episcopal Church (as you are) I do not expect the institutional expression of church to be much help. Rather as even recent experience if renewing my license to officiate as a priest over 72, I find it easier to laugh at the pointless bureaucratic process and rules. A ray of hope, even the new Presiding Bishop experienced some of the institutional mess the first time he met with the executive council.
What you chamipon in the anecdote is where the fire burns and there is power--the friendship, the love among us. I serve two small and mostly elderly parishes a half year each on both coasts. It's not the "programs" heralded by diocesan staffers, it's not the trending format for preaching. It rather is the communion--in the bread and cup, prayers, scriptures that makes for our community, our fellowship. In a dismal time, I say when I preach: stand up for God's ways (kingdom), how God is God, in forgiveness, generosity, love. Then go out to the week and do that. Be God. And Derek Thompson is right that the whole society loses bigtime when what I just described stops happening.
Thanks for you good words always and sorry for the longwindedness.
I belonged to a church for 11 years, was deeply involved in the music ministry and had many relationships within the congregation - all ages and walks of life, as you’ve said - but they seemed “surfacey”. I left the church because the pastor wasn’t being honest with me, he was saying what I wanted to hear but he wasn’t honest. He promised me things he would never deliver. When I left the church, NO ONE reached out to me. Not a single person, although they called me friend, checked on me or asked why I left. It was as if I were never there.
I don’t actually ‘like’ this, I’m just acknowledging that this is really hard, and really common, I’m afraid.
and this is what I mean when I say that if we want to save our congregations we need to look deeply and honestly at how we are living the Gospel - loving God and our neighbor - within the community.
I agree. And I acknowledge that it was partly on me that I didn’t work harder to establish deep relationships. And I do miss the community of church, it’s the reason I would go back.
When I read this this morning I wept. Tears of joy for her victory but, mostly I’m sorry to say, tears for the loss of a dear friend. You know, when we would have lunch, she would always give me a homework assignment so I could prepare for “the topic of the day”. What a lady.
She was amazing. And yes, I miss her so. And I know she is having the *best* time peppering God with questions!
We love our church. It’s a queer-positive, open-minded Baptist church. We have a lot of great intergenerational relationships. I’d really like us to go deeper though in our intimacy. I’m the adult spiritual formation person. People like to read books and talk about them on an intellectual level. I would like us to do activities that allow for vulnerable sharing. I’m not sure how to change the culture exactly. I have a lot more intimacy with other communities I’m a part of.
I would pay attention to the other intimate community relationships you have. What's there that's missing in your church?
Also, I don't think you can change the culture of the church. But you can let it change you.
By which I mean - be open to what you're resisting. The invitations to draw closer that you're not responding to.
I mean it when I say my friend scared me at first! My inclination was to be pleasant on the surface, but also guarded with someone I worried might be trying to hurt me.
She wasn't. But I didn't know that until I let her come close enough to know that for sure.
I definitely agree that trying to figure out if I'm resisting something or being snobbish in some kind of way is a part of the journey. Basically, what I've experienced in subcultures like ecstatic dance, tantra, and kink is a whole different universe than what middle class white liberal churchgoers are up for. I find myself more restless with mainstream social norms the more queer and embodied I get in my spirituality.
So interesting to me that our free range/part-time priest gets the essential understanding of the church that many of our full-time clergy don’t as they continue to do what we have always done and somehow expect different results. This is not the season for the status quo and it certainly isn’t the future of faith. Thanks
thank you!
So dear Fr C, You know me from both Community as church, church and community and Ministry Matters. I now am working on Communion and community. I have already commented and you've been gracious to mention both books. Many thanks. The current full Hokusai you are doing with 36 view not of Mt Fuji but church as community is exactly where our attention ought to be. As you note with decreasing numbers of people and dollars, with conflict and division which is what our country is in now, all the more it seems we are challenged in trying to be the body of Christ, the bread for the life of the world, the people of God.
After 42 years in ordained ministry in several church bodies and now the Episcopal Church (as you are) I do not expect the institutional expression of church to be much help. Rather as even recent experience if renewing my license to officiate as a priest over 72, I find it easier to laugh at the pointless bureaucratic process and rules. A ray of hope, even the new Presiding Bishop experienced some of the institutional mess the first time he met with the executive council.
What you chamipon in the anecdote is where the fire burns and there is power--the friendship, the love among us. I serve two small and mostly elderly parishes a half year each on both coasts. It's not the "programs" heralded by diocesan staffers, it's not the trending format for preaching. It rather is the communion--in the bread and cup, prayers, scriptures that makes for our community, our fellowship. In a dismal time, I say when I preach: stand up for God's ways (kingdom), how God is God, in forgiveness, generosity, love. Then go out to the week and do that. Be God. And Derek Thompson is right that the whole society loses bigtime when what I just described stops happening.
Thanks for you good words always and sorry for the longwindedness.
As always, I appreciate your wisdom, Michael! I have learned a lot from you.