I hope you are right. I’ll have to do some thinking about how to keep “sharing” from unintentionally slipping into “selling.” I think our local church will need to remodel the sanctuary and remove the pews, etc. we’re not there yet, but tbt.
Getting back to this interesting topic — what I suggested in the post above is the question of how much Anglo-Catholic tradition (or flavor) would attract those looking for a spiritual home? Could we do it without the Book of Common Prayer? Or the various liturgies in the BCP? The formal presentation of worship like robes, candles, bowing, short meditation (not sermon), using four scripture readings? Hierarchichal institutional organization?
I like a lot of formal ceremony, but I don’t see unaffiliated worshippers in search of that. I don’t view the TEC as occupying a centralist position between Catholic and Protestant. It lies much closer to the Catholic side, so any move to reduce a denominational identity must move toward Protestant experience. But then some reduction of our traditions above means, I think, that we end up losing our identity. I can’t figure a way to square the circle, as it were.
Oh dear I keep having more thoughts. Isn’t it difficult to find a method of blending worship practices which adequately draw some people without repelling others? Is it even possible to accomplish? When we invest energy into building attendance, might that reduce our focus on worship?
I think we need to truly learn the difference between the mid-20th century American institution (church) and the living, breathing Body of Christ (church).
So I think my question of what to shed and what to keep still applies to any mainline church. Can we eliminate denominational boundaries and maintain corporate worship? Without corporate worship of some sort can we build peoples’ spiritual formation, discipleship, service, or evangelism? Perhaps the elephant in the room is that many, many of our congregations will likely have to shed the very building that nurtured and located the core experiences of their Episcopal congregation.
actually, it is this thinking that I'm talking about. 'We' can't just snap our fingers and change anything. Not really.
I think the change comes by asking the questions, waiting for answers. Taking new, small steps in the direction of where we feel the most joy, energy, love. Being willing to *stop* doing things that exhaust us and bring us further away from sharing the Gospel.
It's getting out of the mindset of making corporate shifts in policy and getting into the place where each of us is called to be a disciple.
honestly, I don't think this is desirable or realistic to accomplish. Worship is so full of meaning. It's a primal way of connecting people with God. People are very resistant to changes in their style of worship, whatever it may be.
Plus, I don't see the point. We *want* people to connect deeply through worship.
I think the point is to see how *else* we're helping people grow in their relationship with God. and how that is much less tied to denominational boundaries (things like spiritual formation, discipleship, evangelism, service)
And, as always, I would add and grow a Bible study/knowledge component to anything we do. Especially connecting it to the scripture lessons and their teachings for our lives outside of Sunday morning.
You are correct that my comments were incomplete. Since our liturgy has more similarities to Catholic traditions, I was trying to move the thinking more towards the Protestant side of the middle way. I could have made it clearer that I wouldn’t characterize the two traditions as equally spaced. I poorly expressed that I think Protestant and non-churched folk might not be easily drawn to what I’ve heard characterized as “Catholic Light.” But I think the draw could be spiritual and prayerful worship not commonly emphasized for those folk. As always - my comments reflect a growing awareness of Episcopal traditions, sifted through 70 years of mainline Protestant experience.
My thinking is that we as Episcopalians must decide how much of the Catholic “medium” way we are willing to shed. On the other hand, I wonder if we could present our liturgical ways to Protestant folk as a more thoughtful and meditative way to worship (minus the screen, musical comedy and pop entertainment, and such). Unless we do this, the feel good worship experience will overcome our traditions, I think. People seem to be searching for a spiritual home, and I think we could offer that.
interesting that you would shed the Catholic side. so many evangelical churches are picking up more ‘catholic’ practices (fasting, seasons, attention to liturgy, etc). i think the ‘Catholic’ parts are the ones that are uniquely Episcopal (Anglican Catholic). they are part of what gives us are flavor of Christianity.
I’m not sure if it’s the denominations that are the problem - or the way that we allow those denominations to make us competitors, divide us, and “see” ourselves as “better”. When I grew up in the Lutheran church, we often spoke of the Methodists or Presbyterians in derogatory ways. I didn’t like it then and I don’t like it now. Choose how you want to believe and worship, but don’t insult the choices of others. As you said, we need to look for communities and reasons to unify ourselves as followers of Christ. Believers must learn to allow any and all forms of worship, realizing that the larger reality of loving God and people is the most important part of being Christian.
Excellent presentation of the pros and cons of the present denominational situation. My husband (an ordained Baptist pastor) and I (a former Episcopal priest, now affiliated with an independent Christian community) recently offered our services to a Presbyterian church nearby whose interim was suddenly called away before they could call a settled pastor. It was terribly awkward, and our sense was that the regional denominational leaders just couldn't 'trust' the two of us to step in to offer worship and pastoral care for a short time. I ended up just feeling sad.
Fr. Cathie, I had an eye-opening experience last year when I joined the staff of an American Baptist church for five months in a supporting role. I handled pastoral ministry and preached once a month. They loved having an Episcopal priest around and I learned to appreciate a very Protestant way of worship on a Sunday morning. More than a few mentioned that they appreciated my shorter sermons than the pastor and associate usually gave. But beyond my liturgical background and their very low-church style we shared a common ministry to the poor, the hungry and immigrant in our community, the LGBTQA+ community and just helping to make our community a better place to live -- because we all believe God is calling us to do just that.
Hi Cathie - I think you are correct to want to both maintain denomination and shed it. For those new to the Episcopal Church, I find great meaning in the weekly Eucharist. Maintain. But I note a weakness, even illiteracy, with the Bible. Keep & improve. “But we read 3 scriptures plus the Psalms every week,” says a veteran member. True, but they lack context when presented over Three years. Preaching could improve, I think. How do we give up denominations and maintain practice and focus on what we do well?
I don’t think it’s up to me to decide if maintain or shed denominations!
What I’m trying to say is that we live in an increasingly non-denominational church, and world. that it may behoove us to reach out to new (and not so new!) Christians in ways that are more ‘post-denominational’, and less dependent on a particular way of being Christian
So yes - of course, we keep celebrating the Eucharist. and maybe we focus on discipleship/formation that is not focused on a particular denomination, as well.
I hope you are right. I’ll have to do some thinking about how to keep “sharing” from unintentionally slipping into “selling.” I think our local church will need to remodel the sanctuary and remove the pews, etc. we’re not there yet, but tbt.
Getting back to this interesting topic — what I suggested in the post above is the question of how much Anglo-Catholic tradition (or flavor) would attract those looking for a spiritual home? Could we do it without the Book of Common Prayer? Or the various liturgies in the BCP? The formal presentation of worship like robes, candles, bowing, short meditation (not sermon), using four scripture readings? Hierarchichal institutional organization?
I like a lot of formal ceremony, but I don’t see unaffiliated worshippers in search of that. I don’t view the TEC as occupying a centralist position between Catholic and Protestant. It lies much closer to the Catholic side, so any move to reduce a denominational identity must move toward Protestant experience. But then some reduction of our traditions above means, I think, that we end up losing our identity. I can’t figure a way to square the circle, as it were.
i don't think we have to do any of this!
I wouldn't suggest losing any of our wonderful traditions. I would suggest finding new ways to share them.
This is really good. Thanks for positing it. We might not actually be stuck in a doom loop if we can better challenge our assumptions.
Oh dear I keep having more thoughts. Isn’t it difficult to find a method of blending worship practices which adequately draw some people without repelling others? Is it even possible to accomplish? When we invest energy into building attendance, might that reduce our focus on worship?
Yes we do want connection. How do we maintain who/what we are with the “death spiral” of membership decline dogging our every move?
I think we need to truly learn the difference between the mid-20th century American institution (church) and the living, breathing Body of Christ (church).
So I think my question of what to shed and what to keep still applies to any mainline church. Can we eliminate denominational boundaries and maintain corporate worship? Without corporate worship of some sort can we build peoples’ spiritual formation, discipleship, service, or evangelism? Perhaps the elephant in the room is that many, many of our congregations will likely have to shed the very building that nurtured and located the core experiences of their Episcopal congregation.
actually, it is this thinking that I'm talking about. 'We' can't just snap our fingers and change anything. Not really.
I think the change comes by asking the questions, waiting for answers. Taking new, small steps in the direction of where we feel the most joy, energy, love. Being willing to *stop* doing things that exhaust us and bring us further away from sharing the Gospel.
It's getting out of the mindset of making corporate shifts in policy and getting into the place where each of us is called to be a disciple.
honestly, I don't think this is desirable or realistic to accomplish. Worship is so full of meaning. It's a primal way of connecting people with God. People are very resistant to changes in their style of worship, whatever it may be.
Plus, I don't see the point. We *want* people to connect deeply through worship.
I think the point is to see how *else* we're helping people grow in their relationship with God. and how that is much less tied to denominational boundaries (things like spiritual formation, discipleship, evangelism, service)
And, as always, I would add and grow a Bible study/knowledge component to anything we do. Especially connecting it to the scripture lessons and their teachings for our lives outside of Sunday morning.
You are correct that my comments were incomplete. Since our liturgy has more similarities to Catholic traditions, I was trying to move the thinking more towards the Protestant side of the middle way. I could have made it clearer that I wouldn’t characterize the two traditions as equally spaced. I poorly expressed that I think Protestant and non-churched folk might not be easily drawn to what I’ve heard characterized as “Catholic Light.” But I think the draw could be spiritual and prayerful worship not commonly emphasized for those folk. As always - my comments reflect a growing awareness of Episcopal traditions, sifted through 70 years of mainline Protestant experience.
My thinking is that we as Episcopalians must decide how much of the Catholic “medium” way we are willing to shed. On the other hand, I wonder if we could present our liturgical ways to Protestant folk as a more thoughtful and meditative way to worship (minus the screen, musical comedy and pop entertainment, and such). Unless we do this, the feel good worship experience will overcome our traditions, I think. People seem to be searching for a spiritual home, and I think we could offer that.
interesting that you would shed the Catholic side. so many evangelical churches are picking up more ‘catholic’ practices (fasting, seasons, attention to liturgy, etc). i think the ‘Catholic’ parts are the ones that are uniquely Episcopal (Anglican Catholic). they are part of what gives us are flavor of Christianity.
I’m not sure if it’s the denominations that are the problem - or the way that we allow those denominations to make us competitors, divide us, and “see” ourselves as “better”. When I grew up in the Lutheran church, we often spoke of the Methodists or Presbyterians in derogatory ways. I didn’t like it then and I don’t like it now. Choose how you want to believe and worship, but don’t insult the choices of others. As you said, we need to look for communities and reasons to unify ourselves as followers of Christ. Believers must learn to allow any and all forms of worship, realizing that the larger reality of loving God and people is the most important part of being Christian.
I completely agree that we tend to denigrate other denominations - other 'teams' of Christians, if you will. I know I've been guilty of this!
Excellent presentation of the pros and cons of the present denominational situation. My husband (an ordained Baptist pastor) and I (a former Episcopal priest, now affiliated with an independent Christian community) recently offered our services to a Presbyterian church nearby whose interim was suddenly called away before they could call a settled pastor. It was terribly awkward, and our sense was that the regional denominational leaders just couldn't 'trust' the two of us to step in to offer worship and pastoral care for a short time. I ended up just feeling sad.
Fr. Cathie, I had an eye-opening experience last year when I joined the staff of an American Baptist church for five months in a supporting role. I handled pastoral ministry and preached once a month. They loved having an Episcopal priest around and I learned to appreciate a very Protestant way of worship on a Sunday morning. More than a few mentioned that they appreciated my shorter sermons than the pastor and associate usually gave. But beyond my liturgical background and their very low-church style we shared a common ministry to the poor, the hungry and immigrant in our community, the LGBTQA+ community and just helping to make our community a better place to live -- because we all believe God is calling us to do just that.
that's awesome, Manny! Thanks for sharing your experience
Hi Cathie - I think you are correct to want to both maintain denomination and shed it. For those new to the Episcopal Church, I find great meaning in the weekly Eucharist. Maintain. But I note a weakness, even illiteracy, with the Bible. Keep & improve. “But we read 3 scriptures plus the Psalms every week,” says a veteran member. True, but they lack context when presented over Three years. Preaching could improve, I think. How do we give up denominations and maintain practice and focus on what we do well?
Reach out for new folks. I could sure use some ideas to add to our current efforts. Anyone out there? Throw some at me!
you could definitely sign up (and sign people up) for Your Life with God
https://open.substack.com/pub/yourlifewithgod1?r=1zkzb6&utm_medium=ios
I don’t think it’s up to me to decide if maintain or shed denominations!
What I’m trying to say is that we live in an increasingly non-denominational church, and world. that it may behoove us to reach out to new (and not so new!) Christians in ways that are more ‘post-denominational’, and less dependent on a particular way of being Christian
So yes - of course, we keep celebrating the Eucharist. and maybe we focus on discipleship/formation that is not focused on a particular denomination, as well.